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Subject Topic: Hardware question Post Reply Post New Topic
Message posted by jordi on December-27-2007 at 8:49am
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Hi everyone!

I'm using an old panorama harware, which consist in a Fujifilm 9600, attached to a Nodal Ninja, with that system in need to make 54 pictures for having the full sphere, and when I need to do HDR then the number of pictures rise up to 162 pictures, which is too much... For that reason I want to purchase the canon 40d with the new sigma lens (4,5mm), and the manfrotto 303sph, does anyone can explain me which kind of problem I'm gonna find with this new equipment, and If Panoweaver is having a good workflow for that equipment ??

Thanks a lot,



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visita3d.com

Message posted by realtor jerry on December-27-2007 at 9:04am
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Hi Jordi, I can't help with your equipment question but I would love to see one of your panorama's that uses 54 shots. Would you mind posting a link?

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Nikon D300, D3s, Nikon 10.5 lens, RingT105N+Footplate+MrotatorTCPs, Giottos MT9261 Tripod, Manfrotto 410 Jr geared head.

If you know the "secret" then everyday is a good day!

Message posted by smooth on December-27-2007 at 10:37am
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November-23-2002
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Jordi,

While the 40D is a great camera it would be a total waste to use the Sigma 4.5mm Fisheye in my eyes. The reason is you will not be making the most out of the camera sensor area. Much the same as using a Sigma 8mm on a Canon 5D. You end up with a whole lot of black! This is not so bad on the 5D because it is a 12.7 megapixel camera but still the maximum final stitch size is only around 5800x2900 pixels and you get larger than that using a Canon 10D 6.0 megapixel using the same lens.

Anyway, I would suggest buying the Sigma 8mm Fisheye for a couple of reasons. It's cheaper and will give you larger 360x180 panorama stitched images. OK, so you will have to shoot 4 (Drum) shots instead of 3 (Circular) shots, no big deal!

Now for the panohead: The Manfrotto 303SPH is a great big heavy chunk and not the best in class. You would do far better with an Agnos MrotatorTCPS or for that matter a Nodal Ninja 3 Both these products are better suited to full spherical panorama shooting. Allowing you to shoot 90 degrees up and down shots. Weigh less and most likely cost less. I do not know I one person who favours the Manfrotto 303SPH. Though I do know of plenty who did buy one only to regret it and then sell it. Fact is, it's the most offered secondhand panohead in the world. Too heavy, too expensive and just not as good as others.

As a consideration you should look at the Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye for the Canon. You would have to shoot 6+TB @ 10mm (Full Frame) but the quality would be higher than the Sigma 8mm (4 Shots or 4+TB) 

Another point for the cost saving is that the images from the 40D are unlikely to be any better than those from a Canon Rebel XTi (400D) and the only reasons for buying the 40D over it would be build quality and some minor menu options. (The the LCD View Finder is nice also).

Panoweaver 5 will handle all that has been discussed.

All points to be considered.

Regards, Smooth


Message posted by jordi on December-28-2007 at 8:51am
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Smooth,

Fisrt of all, thanks for your complete explanation,

I was planning to get an equipment not so affordable :

1. cannon 40d : 950
2. sigma 4,5 : 700
3. manfrotto panohead 303sph : 600

total: 2250

with which I only could get images of 4000 * 2000 pixels, and having very heavy equipment,

I've considered all the points that you suggest...

1. camera : canon 400d: 500
2. lens : [tokina 10-17mm : 600 ] or [sigma 8mm: 700 ]
3. panohead : Nodal Ninja 3: 176

total : 1276 or 1376

This is a noticable price change, and I think with this equipment I will run better...

I've been cheking the Panoweaver 5.0, and I guest that with that equipment, I would have to do the process by the
full frame fisheye 6+TB, and for what I understood, I can directly attach the hdr files, by indicating the Bracket exposure...

-the max file size would be something like 8000*4000 ?

-Can I do some kind of stencils ? I mean if I take a picture with people moving, and they appear in more than one picture, is it possible to take them out, using
panoweaver 5.0 ??

-Will I have problems to locate the nodal point, do you think it's really changing the position of the non paralax point, by changing the aperture? *1

- as I'm having TW3 licensed, I wouldn't need to publish the panorama through the Panowear, Which version should I purchase, I've seen there's the batch version,
which I guest works much better when you need to do many panoramas, is it really noticable the velocity change??

- I'm still a bit confused with the lens decison : sigma 8mm, or tokina 10-17, most of people is using sigma, and easypano always indicates it as their mein lens,
i really don't care so much in the number of pictures to be taken, but the final quality, the easy way of finding the nonparalax point, and the versatility for many photographic locations,
do you know what happens with the lens flare in both cases: tokina and sigma


*1 I've found pretty cientific way for understanding what's the nodal point, and how to find it

non parallax point


thanks,

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visita3d.com

Message posted by smooth on December-28-2007 at 10:02am
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smooth
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Jordi,

I'll try and start from the beginning of your post.

40D for only $950? Very Cheap! Best I have seen is around $1100.00 most charge $1400+ using this camera you would still get 8000x4000 no worries with the Tokina 10-17 Zoom Fisheye @ 10mm setting (6+TB)

Regardless, If you go the 400D you will no doubt save plenty of cash along with weight and again you will get 8000x4000 no worries with the Tokina 10-17 Zoom Fisheye @ 10mm setting (6+TB) the sensor size is the same between these cameras.

Possibly the Agnos MrotatorUT would be a better panorama head than the Nodal Ninja 3 based solely on the Rotator Base and Detents click stops on the horizontal upper arm. But either will do the job using the lighter weight plastic body 400D. Both are value for money. I have both and tested them fairy extensively.

Yes, you would stitch using Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye images with the setting Full Frame Fisheye 6+TB in Panoweaver 5.0 and you can stitch directly with RAW files and produce HDR. Masking is not so straight forward with Panoweaver as the .PSD output is not in layers. Though using Smartblend as a plug-in will help greatly with double ups in image seams. I.E: where a person may overlap two images.

Setting the NPP (entrance pupil) is no big deal, though people can make it seem hard. Basically you just need to set the NPP over the X & Y axis over the exact centerline of the tripod column. Most correct positions are listed on the Nodal Ninja website camera settings page and includes the 400D and 40D fitted with the Sigma 8mm Fisheye and also the Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye at many zoom settings. So basically you can just use these and your in business. Learning how to do it by yourself is something that you really should know though! It is not a major task and should have it completely under control within 1 hour.

The difference between Panoweaver 5.0 and Panoweaver Batch 5.0 is the convenience of batch stitching. That is it. So unless you have many to stitch everyday. I doubt you would want to spend the extra money. On top of that you must trust everything, as it becomes totally automated. Personally I would check each panorama individually for errors. I suppose if it was for quick and dirty real estate jobs it would be OK, but I don't cover that market.

As for the lenses: The Sigma 8mm Fisheye is a proven and popular lens. It has been around now for many years although has been updated over the years (It is a circular fisheye lens). The Tokina 10-17mm Zoom Fisheye is relatively new to the market (being a re-badged co designed Pentax Tokina lens) and has been around for the Canon mount for about 1 year. (It is a full frame fisheye lens) Both lenses are very good and have only minimal lens flare. Note: Sigma 8mm F/3.5 EX DG version)

Regards, Smooth


Message posted by jordi on December-28-2007 at 1:49pm
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Smooth,

I had used the euro symbol after the prices, but it seems not to appear, that was the change of prices...


For the lens I'm interested in the tokina, as I would do more pictures and getting bigger image,
and cheking their web I've seen that must be a good lens

The panohead, I don't really know, because the nodal ninja3 is 90 euros cheaper, and on the other hand, the agnos is more strong, and can give future aplications
like connecting to the telescope, or to those rings for the sigma 8mm...but I don't know the real advantages and disadvantages of each one

The nodal point is a topic that I thought I had known enough until the day I found the THEORY OF THE NON PARALLX POINT (posted before),
for my camera (fujifilm 9600 -- 28mm) it was working good enough, but I was afraid of not finding it in a fisheye lens, due to the variation of the apertture

I've been cheking the Smartblend as a plugin for some soft, like Panoweaver or PtGui

As I know PtGui is one of the most Pro soft for image stiching which allows multi-row, hdr, batch, and many other features, and where you can manually touch any part of the stiching process, while Panoweaver is full automatic, don't allow multirow, and it's more expensive...
What benefits is having Panoweaver 5.0 ? is because it's more easy to use ??


thanks

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visita3d.com

Message posted by jordi on December-28-2007 at 1:53pm
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I've made a little virtual tour for showing the panoramics made from 56 images

demo 56 pictures

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Message posted by realtor jerry on December-28-2007 at 6:35pm
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Thanks for the link Jordi. Very nice, sharp and clear. I can't even imagine trying to stitch 56 shots.

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Nikon D300, D3s, Nikon 10.5 lens, RingT105N+Footplate+MrotatorTCPs, Giottos MT9261 Tripod, Manfrotto 410 Jr geared head.

If you know the "secret" then everyday is a good day!

Message posted by smooth on December-29-2007 at 12:52am
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Jordi,

Euros! Now it makes sense.

The main issue's with the Nodal Ninja 3 over the Agnos MrotatorUT is simply in the rotator and click stops, it is not as defined even after adjusting correctly and doesn't feature a lock. The Nodal Ninja 3 doesn't like to be turned in an anticlockwise direction. If it is the centre screw comes loose and the head in not stable. Of course being cautious and avoiding this will help. That said, it is a widely used and appreciated panohead. The Agnos on the other hand is far superior in this regard with either the RotatorT or RotatorM base.. Apart from that the Nodal Ninja 3 is a fine panohead and works well, if anything the Nodal Ninja 3 @ 176 Euros is a little more solid in the support arms over the MrotatorUM @ 190.00 Euros (no lock). I suppose it's a case of you get what you pay for. Either when purchasing from Bill at Nodal Ninja or Agnos let them know Smooth recommended you to them.

Let me just say, if it was me I would be buying the MrotatorTCPS which is my number one used panohead.

Stitching: Panoweaver 5.0 offers ease of use and three output viewers and provides options for your own loader splash screen along with Full Screen Flash option. It IS possible to add your own control points much the same as Hugin or PTGui etc making it NOT fully automatic should you need it to be. That said, if you have set up the NPP correctly Panoweaver 5.0 is so good you shouldn't need to add any control points and allow it to be automatic. It is not a difficult piece of software to use. Of course if you need maximum control, multi row stitching and such then you should look at other options. As this is Easypano's website and forum it would not be fair to talk about or recommend any other brand here.

Regards, Smooth


Message posted by jordi on January-03-2008 at 9:33am
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Smooth,

I already have bought the canon 400D, and the tokina 10-17 !!

At the end little bit cheaper than what I thougt :

canon 400D + Tokina 10-17 + 4GB Compact Flash + extra battery + Bag + Wi Fi shooter = 1125 euros

I really didn't have many time to try it out a lot, but I have done few shoots...
For that moment, I'm still using the Nodal Ninja 2 sph, which allows me to do the 6 pictures + b, but as it's very little panohead, I can't with the top...

I already stiched some panos with Panoweaver trial version, which is very quickly process, but still have to do the nadir and zenir experiment....

I'm very happy with this new equipment, and seems to make it more easy and professional for me, thanks for your suggestions...

Now I just have to purchase the new Panohead, your last post you suggest MrotatorTCPS and I think that could work very good for me...

Last question :

- for 10 euros there's the MrotatorTCP, which must handle with bigger camera, but do you think that being bigger it's also more unstable ???
which kind of camera can't handle the TCPs

for sure when I purchase this agnos equipment I will tell you suggested me

thanks a lot

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